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Sunday, June 18, 2017

Foxholes: a poll

✌Red Pill Texas 👌‏ @RedPillTexas

Leadership matters. If you were under fire in the foxhole. Would you want @RichardBSpencer, @Cernovich, or Vox by your side?

vote here

I can see the case to be made for any of us. Richard, to his credit, is more than willing to put himself out front and take the shots on behalf of others. Whatever you might think of him or his ideas, I don't think he's given enough respect for his courage.

Mike is tough, aggressive and proactive. Physically, he's the biggest and strongest of the three of us. He's also rather more clever and observant than most people realize.

I tend to be lazy, remote, and tend to be considerably more interested in the abstract than the moment. On the other hand, I'm the only one of the three who is frequently compared to, if not described as, a serial killer.

So, I suppose it really depends what you're looking for.

Labels:

124 Comments:

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 18, 2017 6:10 PM  

Ivan Throne

Blogger Matt June 18, 2017 6:14 PM  

Spacebunny and her dogs.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr June 18, 2017 6:16 PM  

Which of the three of you is the best shot?

Blogger Salt June 18, 2017 6:18 PM  

I'd take Vox as he'd show up with an espresso machine.

Blogger JACIII June 18, 2017 6:22 PM  

1) Erratic.
2) Too liable to go off half cocked.
3) 9mm

Just no winner here.

Anonymous Patron June 18, 2017 6:27 PM  

In the foxhole? Probably Cernovich, I don't know Spencer well enough. Vox needs to be working on strategy back at division HQ or something rather than dodging bullets.

Anonymous Battlefrog June 18, 2017 6:34 PM  

I'd have to go with Cernovich. Had to think about it for a minute, but I think he has had more trial by fire in his life than Vox.

Spencer isn't even under consideration. Might as well through Milo in the list if you're gonna include someone who exudes as much softness as Spencer.

Anonymous #FreeRicky Ricky Vaughn RIP June 18, 2017 6:35 PM  

Which of them LARPs as a "non-white" like Elizabeth Warren? If you are a white guy, there's your answer.

Blogger Ransom Smith June 18, 2017 6:38 PM  

An actual foxhole? Firefight going on?

No disrespect but none of y'all would be my first choice.

Can I write in Nick Cole?

Anonymous Brick Hardslab June 18, 2017 6:42 PM  

Vox, he's smallest and I am big. I need my space. I don't know that any of them can shoot (which is the only reason I can see for spending time in a foxhole) so we're going with size.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab June 18, 2017 6:43 PM  

No wait, can choose Space Bunny? How long are we going to be stuck in the foxhole?

Blogger SixtusVIth June 18, 2017 6:47 PM  

Spencer? Propaganda minister.

Vox? Grand inquisitor.

Cernovich? Stormtrooper captain? Maybe. He did take it to 60 Minutes successfully.

Anonymous Saracen III June 18, 2017 6:49 PM  

Spencer in the foxhole - I'll take heart over brains and brawn anytime.
Cernovich as platoon leader. Vox on heavy weapons.

Blogger Arthur June 18, 2017 6:50 PM  

Which of the three has killed before?

That's a more serious criteria than a lot of people give credit for.

Anonymous UF June 18, 2017 6:50 PM  

Vox. Mike would be a good choice, too. But I trust VD more and it's easier to anticipate his objectives. Richard is brave but makes bad decisions.

Blogger KJE June 18, 2017 6:52 PM  

Kratman. Then Nick Cole or Larry Corriea.

Blogger haus frau June 18, 2017 6:57 PM  

"I tend to be lazy, remote, and tend to be considerably more interested in the abstract than the moment. On the other hand, I'm the only one of the three who is frequently compared to, if not described as, a serial killer."

Yeah see this isn't exactly a selling point. This just means you're more likely to go cannibal when one of us gets a little sleepy. If Vox is the Dark Lord on a good day then Vox without a martini and tapas in a fox hole would really suck.

Blogger Ben Cohen June 18, 2017 7:01 PM  

Chuck Norris

Anonymous Andrew E. June 18, 2017 7:01 PM  

Whatever you might think of him [Spencer] or his ideas, I don't think he's given enough respect for his courage.

Agreed. People vastly underestimate what it takes to stand up in front of crowds and say the things he says. I've been very impressed. If he could find his way to Christianity and frame white identity within that framework what a huge coup that would be.

Blogger ace June 18, 2017 7:02 PM  

There is a reason I follow Vox Day and not the other two, from the start. That would hold in other situations.

Blogger Skyler the Weird June 18, 2017 7:02 PM  

Mike. He is an attorney and can sue people.

Blogger Cynic In Chief June 18, 2017 7:02 PM  

I choose Mike. I've been on the ground with him before at the RNC. Vox would be better at HQ laying out the surprise attack.

Blogger cheddarman June 18, 2017 7:04 PM  

Nate! For THE SOUTHRON PEOPLE!

Blogger Elder Son June 18, 2017 7:05 PM  

Read some of the comments at Twitter, and they all fail. Who has, at the minimum, actual in the field combat training by actual combat vets?

This is just a personality, uh, perfume test.

Blogger cheddarman June 18, 2017 7:10 PM  

Stg 58/Animal Mother, be sure to tell Ivan Throne not to eat the dead.

Blogger Jack Ward June 18, 2017 7:11 PM  

I agree with stg58. Throne. But if it has to be of these three then Cerno without doubt.

Blogger Quilp June 18, 2017 7:13 PM  

Vox. If things got dicey, he would probably do something like show us photos of McRapey's wife to help us better understand our fate if we lost.

Anonymous MawBTS June 18, 2017 7:14 PM  

Trick question, it's actually "who would I prefer to have a high likelihood of dying."

Anonymous Nym Coy June 18, 2017 7:20 PM  

If we're talking a literal battlefield, Vox clearly has the most military strategic / tactical knowledge. He's a wargamer.

Blogger StinkEye June 18, 2017 7:31 PM  

Depends on who brings the best snacks.

Blogger Johnny June 18, 2017 7:39 PM  

If what I have seen of war is typical, heroics rarely save anyone, but erratic or impulsive behavior is a killer. Given the choices I would go with the most calm of the three. Probably Vox.

Blogger Janus June 18, 2017 7:43 PM  

Of the three, Vox is the one who would probably stay the most focused and have the best idea of how to get out of the foxhole (both the literal and metaphorical foxholes) alive, and quite possibly victorious at the same time.

The other two aren't far off though, they're both worth their weight in gold in a fight.

Blogger Lazarus June 18, 2017 7:43 PM  

I want to know which one is committed to throw themselves on the grenade.

That's the guy.

Do they even use foxholes anymore? Does not sound very 4G.

Anonymous Millenium June 18, 2017 7:46 PM  

Spencer. I want unapologetic neo nazis rushing to our aid. What ever else they might be they are unafraid to engage with the enemy.

Blogger roughcoat June 18, 2017 7:50 PM  

Vox. Spencer has courage but doesn't have enough real world experience. Cernovich doesn't seem steady enough, for lack of a better term. Not sure how to explain what I mean. All would be useful, but for my team, of the three I'd want Vox.

Anonymous Millenium June 18, 2017 7:52 PM  

That is going to be a very skewed poll. I, like many others, have my twitter locked unlessI provide a mobile number which I am never going to do. Those of us more unabashedly alt right on twitter seem to have our IP's targeted with this soft censorship.

Spencer's crowd seems the most willing to speak truth to power and therefore the most likely to be unable to use the poll.

Blogger roughcoat June 18, 2017 7:53 PM  

Lazarus wrote:I want to know which one is committed to throw themselves on the grenade.

I suspect what you'd really want is the guy who knows it's SOP to dig grenade sumps in foxholes so nobody has to fall on a grenade.

Blogger Jew613 June 18, 2017 7:54 PM  

Cernovich, he seems like the sort who wants the mission completed but will do everything to be sure all the men make it home alive.

Vox should be working out the grand strategy far from the frontlines.

Anonymous Looking Glass June 18, 2017 7:56 PM  

@16 KJE

Beat me to it, haha.

As for the actual 3 in a foxhole, Cernovich, seeing as he has actual military training. I want Vox planning Special Operations.

Blogger James Dixon June 18, 2017 7:58 PM  

As the others say, Vox, I want you handling the strategy, not the tactics. So Cernovich. However, I think I'd rather have Larry Correia.

Blogger SgtGideonsDad June 18, 2017 8:02 PM  

I would pick VD. Better the devil you know.

Anonymous trev006 June 18, 2017 8:03 PM  

Cowardice would be disqualifying, but none of those three are cowards. Spencer is soft and makes poor decisions. Cernovich and Vox have different strengths, but given how inspirational a notable loner like VD finds Cernovich? Yeah, I'm gonna say Cernovich.

Honestly though, I'm softer than Spencer, and am unblooded. I'd be missing my favorite arm if I had stuck around to fight a man with a weapon, and some dudes cracked a milk crate over a friends back but ran away. So I wouldn't run from fear... but I know it's not the same as proving yourself in the sandbox. And that makes me unhappy.

Anonymous JewWarrior June 18, 2017 8:04 PM  

Larry Correia

David French

John C. Wright

Anonymous RS June 18, 2017 8:06 PM  

I would choose Scalzi.

Never underestimate the value of having someone slower than you when it's time to retreat.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 18, 2017 8:06 PM  

Vox

Blogger Lazarus June 18, 2017 8:08 PM  

Josh (the gayest thing here) wrote:Vox

so gay

Anonymous trev006 June 18, 2017 8:09 PM  

@JewWarrior:

Correia or Throne would be top choice (my buddy would be #1), I could see Wright fighting no matter how anyone thinks he would perform... but French? He's a lawyer. I mean, if him bring Jewish is more important, I would understand, but in every other capacity? How can you mention him with any of the other names? Rather an old, civilian Catholic who is otherwise not a cuck.

Anonymous Pax_Romana June 18, 2017 8:15 PM  

Why would any of us pick anyone other than the Supreme Dark Lord? He's got his own evil legion of evil as light infantry, and the Vile Faceless Minions as heavy infantry. [assuming a figurative foxhole and not an actual battlefield scenario, of course]

Blogger dash June 18, 2017 8:20 PM  

This is America; I'll take all three.

Blogger roughcoat June 18, 2017 8:21 PM  

David French is a literal Major JAGoff with a stick the size of a sequoia up his ass, no way I want him near my line unit.

Anonymous Petr June 18, 2017 8:34 PM  

Cernovich is a shameless fame whore who wouldn't lift a finger to protect another person unless it harmed or boosted his reputation. I vote for Vox.

Blogger L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright June 18, 2017 8:57 PM  

It's not really a fair question. The question should be: If you were crouched in a foxhole, who would you want over in the general's tent planning the strategy.

Anonymous Rambam June 18, 2017 9:03 PM  

John Wick

Blogger weka June 18, 2017 9:03 PM  

Tom Kratman

Blogger Aeoli Pera June 18, 2017 9:05 PM  

On the other hand, I'm the only one of the three who is frequently compared to, if not described as, a serial killer.

I get that one too. Especially wrt the show Dexter (haven't seen it yet).

Blogger Cecil Henry June 18, 2017 9:08 PM  

Its a team war.

If you're pro-White you alright by me.

Blogger Aeoli Pera June 18, 2017 9:09 PM  

I picked Vox, visuospatial retardation notwithstanding, because the way he thinks makes sense to me and I can anticipate the way he'd want me to act.

Anonymous Rambam June 18, 2017 9:29 PM  

Snidely Whiplash.
I'd use him as a human shield. Dude's a moron, buf could stop a few bullets.

Blogger Lovekraft June 18, 2017 9:36 PM  

I consider myself and many other alt-righters as serving the present role of intelligence gatherers/spreaders, with people like Vox sending out the greater message.

Another concept that come up is logistics, which we should be taking time discussing. Not sure exactly how we would play that role.

Blogger tweell June 18, 2017 9:38 PM  

Vox. I want situational awareness. Spencer doesn't have it, Cernovich may have it, Vox has it. Soccer tends to develop the ability. Vox is also probably in better shape.

Blogger Paul R June 18, 2017 9:45 PM  

Cernovich: I get the idea that Cernovich is just interested in Cernovich. I was reading his book when he disavowed Spencer. I stopped reading it then and never started back up again. I don't trust him. I think he's a fairweather friend.

Spencer - I absolutely respect him. He's willing to get out there and take a lot of abuse. Only problem is that he seems a little soft. I wish he'd stop being such a squishy moderate on things. If you're going to take that kind of abuse then he might as well let it all hang out.

Vox: He is the very best person on this planet that I know of in regards to never showing that he's getting down or discouraged in any way. He encourages people to hang in there and keep fighting better than anyone. This would be important in a foxhole. That's why I'd go with Vox anywhere, anytime.

Anonymous Marvin Boggs June 18, 2017 9:47 PM  

@44: That's great when you're being chased by lions and tigers and bears (oh my). If the bad guys have guns, they may simply shoot the fastest guys first before they get too far away, and then deal with the slow pokes.

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club June 18, 2017 9:48 PM  

I would vote Lindy West. When the incoming gets heavy, pick the biggest bullet sponge you can find.

Not that any of this matters, since I've learned the other side is SOOOO winning:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/18/resistance-victories-trump-mounting-final-blow

No wonder the Guardian has to beg for alms. Who would pay for this shite?

Anonymous Incurvatus June 18, 2017 9:54 PM  

I voted Vox, because I'm more likely to a) live through the war, & b) inflict epigenetic-level fear into the enemy population.

Blogger en_forcer June 18, 2017 10:08 PM  

So we're talking basically a paladin, fighter, and ranger. Gotta pick the best match for your style. :-)

Anonymous Azimus June 18, 2017 10:15 PM  

Are we about to be over-run? Then I choose Al Franken.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( Give us this day our daily bait, that we may crush our enemies, see their weaksauce driven before us and hear the lamentations of their women, thank you Baby Jesus, Amen ) June 18, 2017 10:16 PM  

VD
On the other hand, I'm the only one of the three who is frequently compared to, if not described as, a serial killer.

So, I suppose it really depends what you're looking for.



i vote for you to be in THEIR foxhole for game start.

Blogger Aeoli Pera June 18, 2017 10:23 PM  

Does the Sukhomlinov Effect apply to hair?

Blogger Solaire Of Astora June 18, 2017 10:43 PM  

Mike. He is not too old and doesn't come across as soft like Spencer. Age matters a lot I'd imagine.

Blogger Mastermind June 18, 2017 10:47 PM  

Either Vox or Cernovich would do. I don't agree with the Spencer assessment. I think Spencer genuinely expects to not be assaulted and it keeps happening because he's dumb.

Anonymous Uncle Ruckus, No Relation June 18, 2017 11:08 PM  

If only Vox used .40 jhp. Le sigh.

Sorry, Vox, Gotta go with Cernovich. Military training covereth a multitude of sins.

Blogger Shell June 18, 2017 11:09 PM  

I second a write-in vote for Nate.

Blogger VFM #7634 June 18, 2017 11:28 PM  

All three are decent choices who'd stand head-and-shoulder above at least 90% of American numales around these days.

I'm not on teh Twatter but I'd pick VD, only because he appears to think like me, so I'd maybe be less prone to freezing and getting confused at something my foxhole buddy wants to do.

That said... I could imagine Ivan Throne getting up out of the foxhole and marching toward the enemy, who are so weirded out they can only yell "wtf are you doing, you freak??!" before he unloads his ordnance into their positions with lethal effect.

Blogger tz June 19, 2017 12:07 AM  

I wouldn't want any of the three by my side, I'd want them getting out of the foxhole and firing back.

Anonymous badhairday June 19, 2017 12:13 AM  

Cernovich.

I don't fully trust him, but he can shoot and I can't.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener June 19, 2017 12:47 AM  

Vox would be the obvious choice unless we had to run a significant distance out of the foxhole.

Anonymous Sharrukin June 19, 2017 1:01 AM  

In a foxhole?

Hard to say as none of them have been under fire and until that happens its basically a role of the dice.

Probably Spencer.

Vox has sparred in the ring so he isn't a shrinking violet. Neither is Spencer. Personally I think Vox would be wasted in a foxhole.

I guess Spencer by default.

Blogger JP June 19, 2017 1:09 AM  

Assuming we're talking about an actual foxhole: "On the other hand, I'm the only one of the three who is frequently compared to, if not described as, a serial killer."
Having been in the military, this is the most underrated characteristic. Victory goes to the most calculating and ruthless pretty much every time.

My only question is, how do you get any range time in in Italy?

Blogger Lucas June 19, 2017 1:10 AM  

Cernovich.

Because,gorilla.

Anonymous Forrest Bishop June 19, 2017 1:11 AM  

Come on people. #1 Kratman and the rest aren't part of this poll and write-ins aren't allowed. You're wasting your vote.

I rule out Spencer right off the bat for reasons. That leaves VD and MC. Tough choice. Both are 'clever, observant', and tough as nails- but I wouldn't necessarily put the money on MC in a knock-down fight. VD has too many dark and hidden power levels, sometimes even going so far as to describe himself as 'lazy and remote'. We are amused.

Vox.

Blogger #6277 Hammer June 19, 2017 1:28 AM  

Vox. He'll be my conscience.

Blogger #6277 Hammer June 19, 2017 1:29 AM  

Vox. He'll be my conscience.

Anonymous Bob June 19, 2017 1:57 AM  

VD would simply tell me what to do. Spencer would illustrate what to do expecting me to follow along. Cernovich would present some convoluted path that I might get right if a grind it out. Its like a dart board would give me a 2/3 chance of being relevant.

Anonymous Israel First Then Merica Fuck Yeah! June 19, 2017 1:59 AM  

I like Kratman because I have a thing for boomercucks who talk tough in Internet forums. I wish Kratman's grandkids would install Twitter dot com on his phone!

I also like Larry Correia because #Cruz2016 forever!

Blogger newanubis June 19, 2017 2:09 AM  

Its on Twitter? Grrrr...I cant vote.

Blogger VFM6974 June 19, 2017 2:23 AM  

Voxday any day. If it was a horror movie he would be the last survivor and turn the table on the monster/haunt/undead killer at the very end. Machiavellian tends to endure tragedy more gracefully than heroic (Cerno) or idealist(Spencer).

Had the poll included Spacebunny, in that scenario she would be the one doing the stalking and hunting. Different context.

Anonymous VFM #6306 June 19, 2017 2:26 AM  

Spencer would bravely dig a carefully constructed foxhole based on the platonic ideal form foxhole...at ground zero, Hiroshima, on August 5, 1945.

Cernovich would find a safe foxhole in the middle of a minefield, invite all of his twitter followers into it, and smile sheepishly when it overcrowds and people start exploding.

Vox would convince the enemy to dig a foxhole, lie down in it, and then tell him to stay there until it filled with rain. If I'm stupid enough to go into Vox's foxhole, I deserve to drown.

Blogger Garuda1 June 19, 2017 2:42 AM  

Gotta give my vote to Nate, as well. My Southern pride won't allow anything else.

Blogger JP June 19, 2017 3:37 AM  

Sigmas are better employed as snipers, no?

Blogger Happy LP9 June 19, 2017 9:01 AM  

Mrs. Day, Wright, Markku, Cerno, Tara, Brit, Gavin, Crowder, AJ and Ivan, I'd be safer with them, no to spencer.

Blogger wreckage June 19, 2017 9:03 AM  

Vox, mainly 'cause I figure he'll find a way OUT of the foxhole once being in a foxhole gets boring....

Blogger Happy LP9 June 19, 2017 9:05 AM  

Wait !! I forgot Nate and others much more skilled than I, forgive me!

Blogger bw June 19, 2017 9:05 AM  

My brother @Vox, at least for the AMUSING convo and /sarc while its going down

Anonymous Athor Pel June 19, 2017 10:09 AM  

" 37. Blogger roughcoat June 18, 2017 7:53 PM
...
I suspect what you'd really want is the guy who knows it's SOP to dig grenade sumps in foxholes so nobody has to fall on a grenade."



And knows grenade attacks on fortified positions don't involve just a few grenades. The enemy waits for darkness and drags whole boxes of grenades close enough to your fighting position to swamp you with them. Even with a grenade sump you won't get them all if five or ten of grenades are tossed into your hole at once.

You might get them all if you're extremely lucky with fuse timing but they won't just do that once, they will toss multiple simultaneous grenades at you continually for several minutes. And they will mock you as you are frantically trying to clear the grenades out of your hole, laughing their heads off the whole time.

Blogger Tom Kratman June 19, 2017 10:30 AM  

@84: How terribly brave you are. Pussy.

@80: Moreover, being in a foxhole is not my highest and best use, should it come to that.

Blogger Tom Kratman June 19, 2017 10:55 AM  

@94

In the first place, we don't use foxholes. What we use used to be called the "Dupuy two man fighting position." I suspect the name is lost in the mists of antiquity now, to most troops. It was believed, circa 1974, that Dupuy picked it up from the NVA and VC.

The differences, beyond that there are two men in the D2MFP, which also has major moral advantages, include overhead cover and relatively narrow firing apertures, which are oriented to the sides so that the fields of fire of positions interlock. In other words, your fire doesn't defend you; it defends the guys to your left and right. (Truth in advertising; the position has gone through several rounds of modification and remodification and back-modification over the lat 45 or so years, some of which allowed frontal fire, too. I don't think the designer of those really thought it through, but was just uncomfortable with the notion of not being able to defend oneself.)

In any case, it is comparatively hard to get a grenade into the firing aperture, especially when scared witless because under fire. Normally, one would attempt to get closer, if possible.

The position itself is cramped, so if a grenade does get in it is relatively difficult to bend, grab it, and toss it out the aperture before it creates a little cosmic catastrophe in the position. Instead, as you mentioned, one has a grenade sump in the bottom. These come in 2-3 types, all of which have a slopped floor to facilitate kicking a grenade into it. One type is a narrow and fairly deep trench running front to back, deep enough that, should a grenade go off in the bottom and the occupants press themselves against the sides, they will not take any fragments. The concussion will still ring their chimes a bit, of course. The other type is a small tunnel dug into the forward face of the position. Personal opinion: That requires a little more finesse than I would expect to see on the part of guys who have just noticed a grenade in their position. The third uses both. Though I have see the third, doctrinally, in manuals, I have never seen anyone actually try to make one to any depth of tunnel.

Normally, with troops who have not been trained to cook off grenades (any pussies from spacebabies here at the moment?), there is a lot of time to get a grenade into the sump, even if not enough to get rid of it entirely. Yes, the sump will start to collapse after a few grenades, but the odds of getting many inside your position are small. Troops only carry a couple, after all, except for in MOUT or reduction of complex fortifications, and will tend to run out early if they have cause to use them at all.

Almost nobody, by the way, trains to cook off grenades or demo. The only ones I know that routinely did were the 193rd, the 75th, and B and D companies, 2/21st (later 2/7th) Infantry. However, if the first time a soldier tries to cook off a grenade is in action it is too late. Even assuming he can find the balls to do it. Cooking off? This involves letting the spoon fly and the striker hit the cap, then counting to 2-3 as he fuse burns...I personally consider 4 to be right out... before letting it fly. It takes some balls, and grows some balls, too. But, if the troop can do it he'll have a fair chance of getting the grenade to go off before it can be kicked into the sump or, for some other countries' defensive positions, be thrown out.

Blogger roughcoat June 19, 2017 10:57 AM  

@ 94

Wow, what genius chose our position and placement so that the enemy can wander within 15 yards or so and chuck endless grenades at us with impunity without getting shot to ribbons in the process? And apparently also left our NVGs and/or batteries off the packing list, if we're getting sneaked up on in the dark? Did we forget illum flares as well? Are we wearing earplugs too, since we're not hearing them coming? Or are they actual ninjas?

If my side is so incompetent that I have to worry about some morons crawling up undetected with a couple dozen grenades and overwhelming me in a fixed position--especially a fixed position I've had a couple days to improve--I'll just stay home, thanks.

Blogger Tom Kratman June 19, 2017 11:11 AM  

@97

Well, there were some instances of VC or NVA sappers getting though our mines and our wire, unseen by NODs and unsensed by PSIDs, to do fairly impressive local damage to us. And, if facing, say, the Soviets and their standard density of about 240 guns, mortars, and rocket launchers per km of front they wanted to break through, you could reasonably assume the troops to be shelled about half catatonic and shaken silly for those who can even think about mounting a defense.

Blogger Tom Kratman June 19, 2017 11:14 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Athor Pel June 19, 2017 11:17 AM  

" 96. Blogger Tom Kratman June 19, 2017 10:55 AM
@94

In the first place, we don't use foxholes. What we use used to be called the "Dupuy two man fighting position." I suspect the name is lost in the mists of antiquity now, to most troops. It was believed, circa 1974, that Dupuy picked it up from the NVA and VC.
...
"



What I described is what happened to my father-in-law in northern Korea as the Chinese overran his part of the line.

I don't think they had time or lumber to build a roof. They did have a grenade sump and he used it, a lot, but he was evntually knocked unconscious and captured. The part that I didn't mention above is that he could hear the Chinese troops dragging up the boxes of grenades. The Americans knew what was coming and they couldn't do a damn thing about it. All their grenades were gone, it was dark and they had been fighting for days without real rest at that point.

The ordeal was written up in his unit history. I can't remember which unit. His unit did get pushed to Pusan at the beginning of the war, defended the Pusan perimeter and was part of the break out once MacArthur landed at Inchon. That ought to narrow the search down for those that want to do that.

I asked him a couple questions. One being how they dealt with the T-34 tanks the North Koreans used when all the US Army had at the beginning was bazookas. He said they targeted the ring on which the turret traversed, at best it knocked the turret off the tank, at worst, if they hit, it jammed the traversal track so the turret couldn't rotate anymore. Yes they had to get real close to do that.

Anonymous BBGKB June 19, 2017 11:19 AM  

Vox will rue the day after I wear a Supreme Dark Lord shirt in NYC when every gay jew pajama boy orders one.

Anonymous BBGKB June 19, 2017 11:21 AM  

Moreover, being in a foxhole is not my highest and best use, should it come to that.

Mine either, I will be serving hemlock brownies to the enemy.

Blogger Tom Kratman June 19, 2017 11:23 AM  

You know, I'm not sure how one could hear the difference between a crate of grenades, a crate of tokarev ammunition, and a crate of soaked tampons. I suspect they heard something and, given a lot of incoming grenades, assumed - not unreasonably - that that was was they heard.

In any case, consider my above lecture as educational, for the mass, rather than argumentative.

Blogger William Meisheid June 19, 2017 11:27 AM  

I just want someone who can shoot. Barring that, someone who can quickly load my empty clips (I can shoot).

Anonymous Athor Pel June 19, 2017 11:28 AM  

" 97. Blogger roughcoat June 19, 2017 10:57 AM
@ 94

Wow, what genius chose our position and placement so that the enemy can wander within 15 yards or so and chuck endless grenades at us with impunity without getting shot to ribbons in the process? And apparently also left our NVGs and/or batteries off the packing list, if we're getting sneaked up on in the dark? Did we forget illum flares as well? Are we wearing earplugs too, since we're not hearing them coming? Or are they actual ninjas?

If my side is so incompetent that I have to worry about some morons crawling up undetected with a couple dozen grenades and overwhelming me in a fixed position--especially a fixed position I've had a couple days to improve--I'll just stay home, thanks.
"



Many times there's dead ground in front of your position that you can't fire into because you're in the ground yourself. It helps to be at a higher elevation than the surrounding ground but if the enemy wants to get close and is willing to spend the men to do it then they can do it. Plus we haven't always had nor do we always have even now infrared vision gear to be able to see at night. Lastly, imagine being outnumbered 10 or 20 to 1. You can catch several in the open, even possibly at night, and they will still get several boxes of grenades within throwing range of your position.

Remember, supplies run out, attrition wears you down, time limits what you can do before the enemy closes with you and the enemy has just as much agency for problem solving and taking advantage of opportunities as you do. Time, physics and entropy affect us all.

Anonymous Athor Pel June 19, 2017 11:48 AM  

" 103. Blogger Tom Kratman June 19, 2017 11:23 AM
You know, I'm not sure how one could hear the difference between a crate of grenades, a crate of tokarev ammunition, and a crate of soaked tampons. I suspect they heard something and, given a lot of incoming grenades, assumed - not unreasonably - that that was was they heard.
..."



I hadn't ever thought about it. I'd imagine the grenades rattle around in a particular way, like a box of fist sized rocks. Unless they're packed with straw.

If I remember correctly that wasn't the first night attack the Chinese tried. There were others on previous nights and they must have left stuff behind which we would have scavenged, including boxes of grenades.

Blogger Tom Kratman June 19, 2017 12:18 PM  

Nah. Ammunition is expensive, even red ammunition. It gets made to be used, but packed to last in storage for a long time. It is also packed to avoid unplanned detonation. They don't usually change the packing methods much for war, because even when it doesn't require long term storage it still requires no premature detonation. The reds didn't usually pack as well as we do, but they'll still pack it fairly well. You can assume grenades will probably be in thick-ish cardboard, separating one from another, inside wooden crates (at least back then). There are different formats for different kinds of grenades from different countries; this one is not untypical, in principle: http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-full-box-of-number-36-mills-hand-grenades-with-a-tin-of-detonators-90936405.html while this one: http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=248854 with its individual cardboard cylinders is more typical of western than eastern armies.

Blogger roughcoat June 19, 2017 12:19 PM  

Well I have to admit now you guys made the hypothetical situation sufficiently dire, I would be concerned about being overwhelmed with grenades in my position.

In a normal situation, I would not be worried about it, unless I had incompetent leadership and then I would be very unhappy. BTDT, glad I survived their idiotic decisions. Which you know were truly idiotic because they were really, really obviously stupid things to do even to a green PFC with about three weeks in country. Experience has not changed my mind about any of those particular incidents, for what it's worth.

Anonymous Forrest Bishop June 19, 2017 12:20 PM  

Tom Kratman wrote:@80: Moreover, being in a foxhole is not my highest and best use, should it come to that.

True. Then proceeds to give the definitive lecture on foxholes. It's not about Kratman the Krucifier's best use, it's about me me me and MY best use.

Blogger Tom Kratman June 19, 2017 12:27 PM  

@109

Clearly, _clearly_, that would be in a fighting position in a unit I have trained and am commanding. ;)

Anonymous Quartermaster June 19, 2017 1:15 PM  

To be lazy, you've accomplished quite a bit.

Blogger Eric Steiger June 19, 2017 3:30 PM  

Q: If you were uner fire in a foxhole, would you want Richard Spencer, Mike Cernovich, or Vox by your side?
A: Yes.

Anonymous BBGKB June 19, 2017 5:53 PM  

I wish Kratman's grandkids would install Twitter dot com on his phone!

Someone has Kratman's name on GAB but isn't using it.

Blogger Roger G2 June 19, 2017 6:20 PM  

I'll take Vox the potential serial murderer, who'll probably turn out to be another Vlad the Impaler. I don't think Cernovich or Spencer would have the indifferent, cold nature about them to decorate the battlefield around our foxhole with impaled hajis-tho admittedly I don't follow the other 2 on a regular basis, so this is just some spitballing.

Anonymous andon June 19, 2017 8:33 PM  

Cernovich is bigger than Spencer?

is that with or without the steroids?

Blogger Tom Kratman June 19, 2017 8:58 PM  

I comment there occasionally, Steve.

Blogger wreckage June 20, 2017 3:42 AM  

I just pity the poor sod who's stuck in a foxhole with me. I used to be OK with a rifle, but my right eye has degraded.

Beyond that, "in a foxhole with an autistic half-crippled dude" probably isn't on anyone's bucket list.

Upside, due to really odd stress responses, I'd probably be good to take a grenade and jump in the other guy's foxhole with it live. It's not courage, it's lunacy, by the way; but one must work with what one has.

Anonymous Dismal Farmer June 20, 2017 5:06 AM  

I was going to comment along the lines that clearly you don't know how "foxholes" work, but Col. Kratman has offered a much better response.

I will say that 99.999% of leadership is about training the troops so you don't have to do anything, and then observing the action so you can figure out what to do better the next time. Being "in the foxhole" is for the most part immaterial. And the best leaders don't get in foxholes, because if we're in foxholes you done effed up as a leader. If you want to be a leader, stand up proud and show that you have planned properly so that the enemy cannot hit you.

Blogger Tom Kratman June 20, 2017 6:44 AM  

@117

What's the nature of the degradation? Some can be fixed. For example, the covering over the cornea of my right eye had basically gotten rough and uneven, making my vision in that eye so bad it couldn't be corrected by glasses or contacts. I couldn't see targets well enough to shoot. Hence, last Tuesday I went to the eye doc and, basically, had the covering sandpapered (they use a kind of sponge, actually) and buffed (little device a bit larger than the pen with a tiny ball that spins). The improvement is _vast_, although the next three days _were_ a misery.

Blogger wreckage June 20, 2017 9:32 AM  

Nah, it's a squint and longsightedness in that eye. Makes it very, very hard to sight down a scope. Really I need to get set up with a nice little target-plinker and learn to shoot lefties. I mean, lefty.

I'm in Oz though, so it takes time, money, and permits. One day!

Blogger wreckage June 20, 2017 9:33 AM  

It's super cool that they could re-grind your eye, heh.

Blogger Tom Kratman June 20, 2017 4:59 PM  

Yes, but having your own miniature Tivoli Fountain on one side of your face is rather annoying.

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Blogger Were-Puppy June 20, 2017 11:19 PM  

I picked SDL in that poll.
I figure, if worst comes to worst, he can call in a horde of VFM for backup.

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